my husband recently went to a lasik doctor
referred to us by our insurance company, we
were quoted $1449 per eye, but today in the
newspaper i saw an add for $299 an eye. how
is this possible? there is about a two thosand
dollar difference, that's alot of money. Is there
any way of checking this other doctors
credability? i would love to save the money
going with this other company, but not at the
risk of my husbands eye sight. oh yah the
other cxompany i keep refering to is the lasik
vision institute, have you ever heard of them?
thank you for your time and response

Yes, many have heard of the Lasik Vision Institute (LVI). Recently the FTC admonished LVI for less than appropriate advertising tactics.

You are caught between two business arrangements that can work against the patient. First of all, if you look at the fine print of that $299 ad, you will see that it applies only to people with very low refractive error, no astigmatism, pay in advance, only on ash Wednesday, etc. In the annual report for one of these discount chains, it was shown that the average price actually collected is about $1,250 per eye. Can somebody get the $299 deal? It’s possible, but not very probable.

The other situation is when insurance companies, my bet is yours is VSP, contract with a LASIK chain to offer a "benefit" to its subscribers. The problem is that LASIK pricing is so volatile that sometimes the vision plans contract for a price that is more than what would be paid if the patient simply walked in the door. It’s not that your vision plan is out to get you, it’s just they don’t do a very aggressive and current job of negotiation.

My advice is to toss the "Buy It Now!" ads, forget about the "Such A Deal!" from your vision insurance, and start looking for the best available surgeon. Focus on the quality of the person who is going to take a blade to your husband’s eye and aim a laser at him. If the best available surgeon happens to be the cheapest, then great for you. If the best available surgeon is not affordable, wait.

If you do surgery on the cheap and something goes wrong, you will never forgive yourself.

Dr. Trattler and our organization work with a refractive surgeon in San Francisco. She is a CRSQA Certified Refractive Surgeon and participates on this bulletin board. If you want her contact information, just ask. If you do not want to travel to the bay area, we have a list of 50 Tough Questions For Your Doctor at http://www.usaeyes.org/faq/tough_questions.htm to help you evaluate a closer surgeon.

Glenn Hagele
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.USAeyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Glenn Hagele wrote: "If you do surgery on the cheap and something goes wrong, you will never forgive yourself."

The very same is also true if you go to the most expensive and most qualified surgeon.

Glenn Hagele wrote: "Dr. Trattler and our organization work with a refractive surgeon in San Francisco."

Since when does Dr. Trattler purchase advertising from CRSQA?

Regina,

Be very careful about the 'advice' that Glenn Hagele posts on internet messageboards. Hagele sells refractive surgery for a living and purposefully attempts to leave readers with the impression that the surgeons who buy his marketing services are better than other surgeons. This simply isn't true. The standards for CRSQA "membership" are very low and pretty much any doctor willing to pay the marketing fee can qualify for "membership".

Hagele is smart enough to consider himself a poor candidate because he knows he will not be happy with the vision that refractive surgery will give him. Please follow his example and avoid refractive surgery.

If you are still interested in refractive surgery make sure to spend time on the bulletin board at www.surgicaleyes.org to actually learn about common complications that people like Hagele and this website downplay. SE is where people with problems from refractive surgery help one another to cope with the oftentimes permanent loss of quality of vision from refractive surgery.

Best of luck,

Terri

Welcome back Terri. You had not been around complaining about my every post lately. I wondered if you were okay.

Dr. Trattler has a San Francisco based surgeon participating with this website who is also a CRSQA Certified Refractive Surgeon. That is what is meant by both of us working with the same surgeon. It has nothing to do with advertising.

Yes, everyone should take any advice found on the Internet with a grain of salt, and that includes advice from me, SurgicalEyes, and even you, Terri.

I don’t sell refractive surgery and never have, but you know this. I have never told anyone privately or publicly they should have refractive surgery, but I have certainly advised against it many times. It is of no consequence to our organization if an individual uses a doctor certified by us, does not use a CRSQA Certified Refractive Surgeon, has surgery, or does not have surgery. It may be of significant consequence to the patient if they do not heed our cautionary advice and select their surgeon wisely.

I’m smart enough to heed our website’s own advice and determine if I am a good candidate for refractive surgery. At this time, I am not.

Not only do I not downplay the negative side of refractive surgery, our organization has recently created a sister website that is devoted exclusively to providing education, resources, and relief for the unfortunate minority who have refractive surgery related problems. It is www.ComplicatedEyes.org.

Glenn Hagele
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.USAeyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Glenn wrote: “I don’t sell refractive surgery and never have, but you know this.”

You may not be the one to run the credit card thorough the machine but you are most certainly selling refractive surgery. The June edition of Eyeworld stated: “What’s in it for the surgeons besides a discount on advertising? Public credibility, according to Hagele, is an important asset, even for those whose names are well recognized within their field.” You are selling refractive surgery by creating an image that surgeons who purchase CRSQA marketing services are better than other surgeons and that customers should go to them to purchase refractive surgery. Everyone knows you sell refractive surgery (including the doctors on this bulletin board. But you know this and continue to distort the truth.

Glenn Hagele wrote: “I’m smart enough to heed our website’s own advice and determine if I am a good candidate for refractive surgery. At this time, I am not.”
You have admitted that you are physically a good candidate but that you consider yourself a bad candidate because you would not be happy with the vision refractive surgery would provide. Good candidates are those who would be very happy loosing quality of vision (which is very common with the increase of aberrations).

I hope Regina and everyone who reads this site and Glenn’s site advertising refractive surgery follow Glenn’s example and NOT have refractive surgery. Correctable vision is to precious to gamble with.

Oh Terri, must we go through this every time I post something?

Public credibility is a good thing. We promote the idea that if someone is going to have refractive surgery, they need to be well informed and select a good surgeon. We do not promote refractive surgery itself, but we do promote making an educated and wise decision about refractive surgery.

Our 50 Tough Questions For Your Doctor are a tool for potential patients can use to help evaluate any doctor. Additionally, we directly evaluate doctors based upon actual patient outcomes and certify their results. If someone is going to have refractive surgery, don’t you think it is a good idea for him or her to be careful about whom he or she selects as his or her surgeon? I do.

CRSQA has no marketing services, however we do encourage doctors who have achieved our certification to use that fact in their marketing. We want potential patients to know which doctors have been evaluated by our independent nonprofit patient/consumer organization. If patients find the better doctors, then patients will get the best possible results. No guarantees, of course. Nobody can guarantee a surgical outcome.

We have tons of information on our website, including the upside and the downside of refractive surgery. In fact, about the only thing we say as an upside is that the most a patient can expect from refractive surgery is the convenience of a reduced need for corrective lenses, and to achieve that convenience they must accept some risk. That is hardly “selling” LASIK.

If someone else has my same set of circumstances, I too hope they do not have refractive surgery. All may turn out fine, but there is, in my opinion, too high a probability that they would not be happy with their outcome.

I agree that vision is precious. If someone is going to have vision surgery, then that person needs to do whatever possible to create the highest probability of a good outcome. I believe that requires an informed decision and a good doctor.

Glenn Hagele
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.USAeyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

Glenn Hagele wrote: Oh Terri, must we go through this every time I post something?

Yes. You keep attempting to portray your organization as a patient advocacy when it is really nothing more than a marketing organization for refractive surgery. The standards you hold doctors to who pay you to market their services are well below those of the ASCRS. Doctors using the CRSQA logo in their advertising is an example of CRSQA marketing. Providing a database of doctors who pay CRSQA is an example of marketing. You are attempting to create an image that the doctors who pay you for certification provide better quality services. You are definitely selling LASIK.

Glenn Hagele wrote: If someone else has my same set of circumstances, I too hope they do not have refractive surgery. All may turn out fine, but there is, in my opinion, too high a probability that they would not be happy with their outcome.

We agree on this. You are physically an excellent candidate but would not be happy with the reduced quality of vision that you would get from refractive surgery. Anyone who would not be happy with a reduced quality of vision as compared to what they have with glasses and/or contact lenses should refrain from refractive surgery. I think everyone should follow Glenn’s example and not have refractive surgery.

How tedious, but at least you provide an opportunity for me to respond with our organization’s attributes.

Obviously I do not agree with your opinion of the purpose of our organization, but you are certainly entitled to hold your own opinion.

The American Society of Cataract and Refractive Surgery (ASCRS) has only one requirement for membership: to be an ophthalmologist. ASCRS does not evaluate a member’s patient outcomes, malpractice history, and membership will continue as long as the member is an ophthalmologist and pays the annual dues.

Doctors using the CRSQA logo to let the public know that they have been evaluated by our organization is an example of doctors marketing, not CRSQA.

We proudly list on our website all doctors who are currently certified. One of the main purposes of our organization is to help people who have decided to have surgery find the better (well, at least evaluated) doctors. The list of evaluated doctors and our 50 Tough Questions For Your Doctor are two tools toward that goal.

I am a poor candidate for refractive surgery because of the low probability my vision after refractive surgery would be equal to or better than my current vision with glasses. My vision with glasses is better than 20/15. When I wear contacts, my vision is about 20/20 to 20/25 and I can’t stand the reduced vision. It is unreasonable for me, or anyone, to expect refractive surgery to provide better than 20/20 vision – even if it can happen. Since I already know that I would be dissatisfied with 20/20 vision, I am a poor candidate. Anyone who has a low probability of achieving what will make them 20/Happy should NOT have refractive surgery.

Glenn Hagele
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.USAeyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.

I had Lasik surgery done on one eye in the Fresno area and saved $400 by being a VSP member. It turned out great!

Congrats! It is good to see that in your marketplace the VSP negotiated discount was a very real benefit. Great uncorrected vision with an extra $400 in the pocket is always good to hear.

Glenn Hagele
Council for Refractive Surgery Quality Assurance
http://www.USAeyes.org
http://www.ComplicatedEyes.org

I am not a doctor.